JANAY NUGENT: Hi welcome to ED Talks.
My name is Janay Nugent.
I am a Board of Governors' Teaching Chair at the University
of Lethbridge.
Oki Ni-Kso-Ko-Wa welcome
to our friends
and family.
We are located in traditional
Blackfoot territory.
And today we are getting
to talk to the President
and Vice-Chancellor of the University of Lethbridge Dr.
Mike Mahon. Welcome Mike.
MIKE MAHON: Thank you happy to be here.
JANAY NUGENT: Great, so we are lucky to
have you here today. You don't often get to talk about teaching
you kind of maybe left teaching in your
past a little bit at the University
of Alberta.
I'd like to start this conversation by getting to
know you as a teacher because I know you as an administrator
as our president but maybe as a teacher
what, you know what are you when you were teaching
regularly.
What were your main passions what sort of drove
you and motivated you in your teaching?
MIKE MAHON: It's a great question.
You know I always start off when I talk about my teaching
to really talk about the values
that drove me frankly into
thinking about becoming an academic
and those values are really all about
inclusion. So I was
very involved as a young person
working with individuals
with disabilities both
in community as well as actually institutional
settings.
Even in high school
and so that really influenced me as I
moved in to university to
sort of look at the whole area of Disability Studies
as something that I was
interested in. In the earliest time this was
in the physical education context
and then I did my PhD in education
but all the way along I was really interested
in in the whole concept of inclusion
early on in relation to people
with disabilities. But I would say
the influence of being involved
in the disability studies world
really influenced how I then began
to think about teaching
and really using inclusion
as a foundation to my thoughts
about teaching.
There's a great quote by
Henry David Thoreau which is
let them walk to the beat of a different
drummer however measured
or far away.
And so that quote
has always sat in my office I think for
I think as long as I've been an academic
and it's really about finding
the right space for people to participate
in whatever context you're involving them
in. So for me as
a faculty member as
a teacher I used that Thoreau quote
as well as you know the foundational
work in inclusion
to really influence how I then interacted
with students in the classroom.
And so you know I would think
about inclusion as a
as both a concept from a
topical perspective
but also as a method as
a foundational method.
There's also a great
quote by a fellow
named Bengt Nirje who is
from Norway
and he wrote in the early
80's about the notion of integration
as being based upon the word integrity
which he said was
the ability to be yourself amongst
others. So that's sort of the second
piece of the puzzle for me is
you know the notion of inclusion
but at the same time the notion of being able to
be yourself amongst others when you are
included in say a classroom context.
And I've certainly seen that play out in
all sorts of ways
as a faculty member you
know people with different learning styles
people needing different kinds
of care and attention as students.
Even in terms of the whole process of
evaluation and grading
and how different students react to that
and engage with you as a faculty member.
So that would be I guess my foundational
thoughts about how I've been influenced
as I thought about instruction
and being a teacher.
JANAY NUGENT: Right, oh that's fantastic.
That really
works towards the heart of a lot of what the University
University of Lethbridge which is about
and particularly in our Liberal Education
philosophies.
And I knew that you had some come
from a background of volunteerism as
well and so that fourth pillar where
we talk about engaged global citizenship
that really sort of speaks to that
as well so.
MIKE MAHON: Yeah I mean you know in my installation address
I talked about volunteerism as
something that has had
great influence in my life
both you know as a young
person actually watching my parents who were
very active volunteers
and then as a young person
myself and then into adulthood.
You know the whole experience of being a volunteer
and the extent to which that really had an
extremely positive impact on me
and how I think I've moved through my career.
So as I've thought about
you know as a
young faculty member as I thought about how
to you know provide as
broad an experience for my students as possible.
I always thought about volunteerism as
an important cornerstone
and so you know,
a lot of the courses I taught especially
when I was really in teaching at the University
of Manitoba you know teaching undergraduate
and graduate students.
Volunteer experiences were built into a
lot of what I did as
a faculty member.
And you know the students would
you know sometimes gripe sometimes be enthusiastic
but I would say always would
be quite self reflective after the
experience about what they had learned
through the volunteer experience
in relation to the curriculum itself
and what we were talking about in the classroom.
So for me coming to the University of Lethbridge
you know seeing and understanding the foundations
of liberal education
and then also the really strong
commitment to the undergraduate experience
you know that really spoke to me as
a faculty member as an administrator.
So you know I would say
I really fell in love
with the University of Lethbridge getting to know
it as I was thinking about
applying for the job of President.
And so since that
time over the last eight years
I've really tried to promote this is as
part of who we are
and really pleased that
you know with the revitalization
of liberal education that that
citizenship component
and volunteerism is part a part
of it is so foundational
to how we see
trying to provide experiences for
our students.
JANAY NUGENT: So you must be particularly proud of the
Volunteer Lethbridge connection that we've
had recently.
MIKE MAHON: I sure am. You know I remember actually
you know the starting of that was
visiting the Volunteer Lethbridge offices
and frankly seeing how bad
they were and how they really
didn't meet their needs as an organization
space wise even the quality of
space. And so as we started
thinking about how we might work
with them as partners
and then this idea of
offering them space in the Penny building
in return for you know exploring how
we as two organizations could come together
to create a volunteer sort of
model for our students.
Has been really gratifying
and now to see you know the extent
to which it's really taken off
and this UVolunteer as
an approach is you
know exciting for me because as I said
earlier I just
have personally found volunteerism to
be such an important experience
for me also for my own kids
my three kids have benefited greatly as I
watch them grow as adults so I think
if we can provide young
people with an understanding of the importance
of volunteerism
but also as
importantly the actual volunteer experience
itself and the extent to which they learn through
that experience then I think we're
expanding their horizons
and we're really setting them up for
their future. And then the other piece of this
it really ties into this
citizenship
pillar is we also are contributing to the community
where we're having a whole
cohort of people see you volunteering
as an important part of their future
and that I think is what civil society
is about is really generating
the next generation of citizens
then understand the importance of their role
as contributors to the citizenry.
JANAY NUGENT: It's very inspiring and a great
objective.
How does that go together then do
you think with the need that universities need
to be very practical
and that we need to change people
future in a job as well as
being good global citizens.
MIKE MAHON: Yeah, understanding that you know
universities have multiple roles to play I
think is important.
And of course we have roles in
promoting scholarship
and research. We have roles in in
creating experiences for our students in
the classroom
and we have roles in helping students
see themselves in different
contexts going forward in the workforce et cetera.
So I think you know it's a
matter of creating balance in terms of
the sorts of things we deliver
to our undergraduate
and graduate students and you know its
also a matter of choice.
I mean I talked earlier about
my beliefs around inclusion in
the notion of integrity
and embedded in there is
a real foundational
valuing of choice
as an important you
know human aspiration
and a human right.
And so I think that
part of what makes up a good
university experience is creating
an environment where students are given
the opportunity
as young adults to make
choices as to how they're going
to engage on campus
both in the classroom,
outside of the classroom with their their
student peers
with their faculty
members et cetera.
Because you know going forward
they are going to have to make a lot of decisions
in their lives. And so if we can create
multiple spaces for a choice making
as part of the experience for
them then I think we're really doing a service to
them. And you know so again
I would go back and say that
the foundation of our curriculum
which has a big choice element
embedded in it is a tremendous
service to our students.
Because it really is helping them
to learn to make decisions,
learn to be choice makers
and this I think is is a
big part of what helps young adults
become successful adults as they
move forward in their careers as they move
forward as family members et cetera.
JANAY NUGENT: Also very inspiring that maybe people don't necessarily
know a lot about is that you
and Maureen,
your wife had created a
scholarship and its the Mahon
Family Athletic Award
is that the correct name of it?
MIKE MAHON: You know that's a good question.
I think its called the Mahon Family
Endowment for Student Athletes.
And yeah, so the you
know the sort of genesis of that is our
number one our belief in
the importance of being role models in terms of giving
because of course one of things
I do a lot is spend time
out in the community asking people
to think about contributing to the university so
that we can continue to grow as
a university. And so I think
it's really important for
me for our family to be models
in that area.
In terms of the choice to
you know look to student athletes.
You know I was a student athlete myself I
really feel that I
benefited greatly from having
the opportunity provided to me
to play football
and run track at the University of Manitoba.
I think I grew as a young
person having to find that balance
between academics
and athletics
and and at the same time I
was still very involved as a volunteer when I was
a student athlete
and student
and so
and in fact that's how I moved
into this whole world of disability studies.
So as I've thought about
my experience as a student I was
involved in the classroom,
involved in athletics
and involved in the community
and so in all three of those
benefited me
greatly and so I see
many students attempting to
achieve the same thing many many of our
student athletes are doing some amazing things.
I mean in fact I am humbled by them I can't
believe the kinds of lives
they live in terms of the contributions
they make across sort of multiple
settings. And so it's really an
encouragement and celebration of
you know the aspirations of
young people to find
that same experience of multiple pathways
and you know if we can support
some young people in
that endeavour then you know
I think we're just
helping a few more folks to be successful.
JANAY NUGENT: Oh that's great
and do you feel that that will have
spinoff effects for the rest of the campus community
and you know some of the athletes may
have a higher profile on campus for example.
MIKE MAHON: Yeah well you know I mean I guess first of
all I'd say as a university president that I think
it's important for students of all profiles
to have high profile
and so our student athletes are
students in drama,
in the arts et cetera our students
that are in our many different clubs that
are are doing some
amazing things. I mean look at
the group that created our WUSC
group on campus that brought
Syrian refugee students here.
So I mean for me it's
about celebrating the breadth of
experiences that our students pursue.
You know I chose we chose athletics because
it's near and dear to our hearts
and it was a way to
sort of profile yes a
group of student athletes
but am very quick to point out
that you know I see the value
in the cross-section of experiences
that our students pursue.
And I'm just so proud of them.
So many of them do so many
things.
JANAY NUGENT: Yeah, really inspiring leadership on campus.
MIKE MAHON: Yeah, Absolutely.
JANAY NUGENT: Which is fantastic.
You mentioned WUSC which
I think is an amazing
project.
Erin Phillips and Anne Dymond have been
really instrumental in terms of
university employees that are
championing this but the WUSC group is
also really great in bringing
in refugees to campus.
So far one but
with aspirations for more.
MIKE MAHON: Yes.
JANAY NUGENT: Internationalization is something that you've been talking about a lot
on campus. And I wonder if you might talk to us a little bit about
why internationalization is an important priority going forward
at the University.
And what do you think that brings to campus
community in particular.
MIKE MAHON: You know when I think of Internationalization I
think about it on one level as kind of inputs
and outputs and so you know from
an input perspective.
I see the value in having
international students come from all
over the world
and really contributing
to the diversity of our campus
as they come to campus.
You know in any given year we have anywhere from
80 to 90, 95 different
countries represented on campus
and that diversity I think
really helps our university
community to grow.
It helps our broader community of Lethbridge
to grow and to see the
value and importance of diversity.
And so from an input perspective I think
we see great value from an output
perspective I think about our own students
and how it contributes to our to
the experience of our students
and certainly having against
international students on campus
helps our own students to
have an international experience at home by
getting to know students from different
cultures and to learn about those cultures
and to embrace diversity
as part of their university experience.
But at the same time also encouraging
students to leave campus
to leave the country
and to you know have
an experience in some way shape reform
in a different part of the world.
I think from my perspective it's important
for those those
opportunities for our students to
travel and have an international
experience to be a
diversity of opportunities.
Because we have working students,
we have you know single
parents that are students so not all
students are going to be able to go off
and you know spend a semester
in another country. But
but many will be able to even have
a two or three week experience during
the summer that sort of thing.
And so my goal for
us is to build up
a cross-section of experiences so
that as many students as possible
can travel outside of Canada can
experience a different culture can experience
different languages can be you know
faced with a situation where they're the
only English speaking person
in a room. Because we know
that that's what our international experiences
are international students experience when they come
to campus all of a sudden everybody
else can speak English they can speak
some but I think it's a
tremendous learning experience for our students
to have that reversed experience.
And so I think as a campus
as a university as we
move beyond being 50 years
and look to be in 100 years
growing from an international perspective
both recruiting
international students
but also sending our students away is really important.
Then the other piece of this is
faculty and staff.
You know I know you're soon off to
give an address in
China and
I know this is a first for you
to speak to an
audience in Asia
and having done that myself.
It's a tremendous growth experience to
actually do that
and I know you'll find
that. And I would like to see as many
of our faculty members have that same kind of
experience where where they have the opportunity
to speak to communities
outside of Canada
and talk about their areas of expertise
whether that's in teaching
or research
and also to share
knowledge to share understandings
and experiences.
And then the other piece of this for me is
from a research and scholarship perspective I think
you know when I see the diversity
of research on our campus
and also the diversity of
international engagement
with other scholars around the world our
and our campus.
I know that we're evolving in a really
positive manner as a university
and I think when you look at the
really long standing universities in this
world that have been very successful.
Part of the success is that they have reached
out that they have really seen
diversity of experiences for students
faculty and staff as as part of what
it means to be an internationalized
university and I think that's a that's
a good aspiration for us.
JANAY NUGENT: In January I believe you gave the Fiat Lux address
which is an annual address to the university community
sort of setting forward
and a conversation about
something really important going on at the university
and we've just come up after 50 years of celebrating
in the University of Lethbridge
and its beginning
and where we've been
and this address was meant to set us
the stage for going forward in the next 50
years. One of the themes that you
brought forward was equity,
diversity and inclusion.
And I wonder if you might tell
us what do those things mean
and how might we achieve them and why are
they important all of those different
types of questions.
MIKE MAHON: Sure, well you know I'd start
off by saying you know as as
it relates to equity diversity
and inclusion
there are multiple definitions of
all three of those concepts
and in fact I think if you were to
speak to a
cross-section of faculty members on our own campus
you would get different definitions
from each individual.
So I would first of all
not want to define what those terms
mean for the campus.
I think it's very important for the campus
to understand those terms
from multiple perspectives.
So what
I've done is suggested that we
need to understand first of all
how are those terms being understood
and conceptualized in the different
corners of campus
and in the classroom
in you know student experiences
even in the residence et cetera
and so that to me is number one.
Secondly then as we
develop a better understanding of how people are
thinking about these these concepts
then understanding
what we're doing about them
and you know the areas
that were maybe doing some good things
and we might say that we're doing quite well
you know in say you know
different notions of diversity
and areas where we really need
to continue to
try and make inroads
and make a difference.
I think there's no question if you know whether
it's looking at
how our prime minister is strongly
encouraging us to think
about notions of equity
and inclusion as a country.
I chair the board of Universities Canada right
now and we've come up
with a set of principles
around inclusive excellence
and so we've provided a
bit of a frame around what that means
but in the end it really is about
broadening the opportunities
for all people.
So it of course goes back to my own
sort of thoughts about inclusion
which is you know in the end really making
sure every citizen has
the opportunity to do the things they want
to do right.
They have choices
and those choices are not restricted
for them and I think that's
very I think sort of
at a very simplistic level how I
view equity diversity
and inclusion for
individuals on a university campus
that people have choices that those choices
are not restricted in any in any
way because of the nature of who they are
and that their choices are
equitable. And so you
know faculty members have equality in
terms of the experiences they have as faculty
members in terms of the you
know their compensation in terms of all these different
things that make
up what it means to be an employee.
Similarly students have equity
of experience in diversity of the experience
that they choose to have.
And so I'm hoping then over the next
number of months we will
come up with a better understanding of
our various interpretations of this.
That we understand where we disagree because
I think part of understanding
it from a go forward perspective
is understanding where some of the roadblocks
are because there is disagreement
and so it's very healthy to I understand
disagreement because once
we understand disagreement we can then start to
try and tease apart how do we get
beyond disagreement to solutions
and strategies to
you know close that gap around
this whole area. So I think it's
a it'll be a great growth experience
for our campus to pursue this.
It won't be easy there will be disagreement
and there will be
you know I think you know I know
some people are nervous about the
heightened expectations that it will create to.
You know whether that in terms of
opportunities provided et cetera
but if we don't do something because
we feel that it's going to create heighten
expectations for
doing the right thing then probably
doing the wrong thing. So I think we really have to be
brave enough to pursue this.
JANAY NUGENT: What about its
impact on teaching in particular
how will this affect teaching?
MIKE MAHON: Yeah well I think that's up to people like you
and all of us to understand
what is inclusivity mean when
it comes to teaching.
What does diversity mean when it comes
to teaching? What is equity mean when it comes
to teaching? You know I would say
if I was to look back on the history of
teaching styles the notion
of equity has evolved right in the classroom.
If we think about the place of the student versus
the professor in the classroom
and you were compare 30 years ago
to today the whole concept
of equity in
the classroom I think has evolved in a
very positive way.
We have already tackled these concepts
even without knowing we were tackling
them you know overtly
and so I think these
are important things to explore because
when I think of diversity you know
in the classroom we could think of diversity
from a cultural perspective.
We can think of it then in terms of
the level of kind of inclusion
in relation to diversity in the
classroom.
We can also think about in terms of diversity of teaching
styles and diversity is as it relates
to how we deliver curriculum right.
So that's the fun part
of these concepts I think is that they
of course exist on multiple levels
and that's why asking
me the president to define
them would be such a mistake because
in a sense that would be very limited,
I would argue interpretation of
concepts that are big
and deep
and important.
JANAY NUGENT: You make me think about space on campus,
teaching space in particular.
MIKE MAHON: Yes, yeah, yeah.
JANAY NUGENT: And I think you're right that we've been moving forward
towards things like increased
equity in the classroom even
between faculty
and students right?
MIKE MAHON: Yes, oh that's part of what I'm thinking about.
JANAY NUGENT: And we've become more collaborators
and colleagues
and that's definitely not everybody's
style. Like you say there needs to be choice.
MIKE MAHON: Of course, yes.
JANAY NUGENT: Some people like the lecture format both as
instructor and as a student
but as we develop things like the SCALE-UP
classroom models,
the flipped classroom models
and collaborative learning models.
They definitely move us towards
some of those directions as well.
MIKE MAHON: Yes absolutely.
I mean I look at our destination project
as a living shining example
of this commitment to
of course transdisciplinarity on one
level and really encouraging engagement
of folks from different disciplines
you know in different spaces
in different ways. But also when
you look at the diversity of teaching
spaces in the destination project
it really is about creating diversity
of teaching
experiences and learning experiences simply
through the space that you offer
and also then how that space is
offered across disciplines creates
another kind of context for it.
So you know we're hopeful
that the destination project will be
a way to bring to life even more
work that we've been doing
with SCALE-UP classrooms
and this sort of thing
and you know I've always said
you know space is not the
kind of end point solution for
good teaching
but it sure helps because
we've all you know tried
to you know teach in
a certain way in a classroom that really didn't
work
and made do
and did the best we could.
But we've known as we've had
that experience as a teacher of that boy
if if we had had a bit of a different space
we should have done this a lot better right.
So I think teaching spaces
is important
and you know I'm glad that
on this campus we have really tried to
incorporate the
whole notion of space as part of how
we think about teaching because I think it is
important.
JANAY NUGENT: Well and that leads,
I have two questions I want to ask you about space.
But the first one let's talk about the Science
and Academic Building.
MIKE MAHON: Yeah, yeah.
JANAY NUGENT: Or the destination project
and maybe if you could explain that
transdisciplinarity
and those different teaching opportunities
that might exist within the building
and so what does that actually look like
and how are we trying to pursue those things.
MIKE MAHON: Yeah well so you know
the whole basis of the building is yes
this idea of transdisciplinarity
and you know so
as a concept transdisciplinarity
goes beyond inter-disciplinarity
in the sense that we really
are trying to encourage people
within disciplines to
not just talk to those in other
disciplines and see where there might be points of
collaboration but actually get in
the heads of people in other disciplines within
their own sort of areas of
inquiry as a way to really
think about things differently right.
And so the building is
really designed to create those sort
of collisions of disciplines so
that those kind of conversations happen.
And when I think about this I think of
two of our faculty members who come from very
different disciplines.
David Naylor who's a physicist
and studies space
and Roy Golsteyn who's
a cell biologist.
You know the story goes like this.
They were having coffee one day
and talking about their worlds.
And David was talking about this
telescope that he was designing
and how far into space it
was going to
let him and others look in
and Roy was talking about the work he was doing
in cell biology trying to
detect cancer cells.
And they started talking about could use the
same technology that
David was using to look into space
kind of flip it around
and say okay rather than trying to look
far. Let's try
and look closer and see if we can detect
cancer cells in a different way.
And lo
and behold that work is
going on as we speak up in Calgary
and so that
discussion over a cup of coffee is
the kind of collisions we hope happen more
and more as a result of
the design of the destination project.
The second piece of the destination project is
very much about the spaces
themselves and so how
they are constructed to
provide different kinds of
delivery and so the laboratories
are very much designed to be
labs that allow for students
and faculty engagement.
So they're not they're not
all sort of static spaces they're
able to be moved around et cetera.
And so the students can have much
more engaged experiences
with their student colleagues
and their faculty members because of the nature of the
space in them and really the mobility of the
space.
The third piece is
the extent to which even the design
in terms of you know where
graduate students are located in relation
to faculty members the fact that at
the end of each sort of quarter
there is beautiful open
spaces for graduate students
and faculty members to sit
and have a cup of coffee
and look over the coulee.
So the space is really designed
to create kind of inviting engagement between
human beings which we know is really
I think important
but also creates lots
of opportunity for creativity
which in the end is so much
of what we're hoping to foster.
And then lastly I would say
this space is also
bold
and it's going to create
some really unique spaces
for people to experience.
And to me that's another part of the
creative experience in both teaching
and learning is having that experience
with space that is inspiring
and you know haven't just been
in the space not long ago.
There are some inspirational spaces
I mean there are spaces that people will walk
into and go wow
and they'll sit on a set of stairs
and look out over the coulees.
They'll really have I think the opportunity
to be inspired by the space
and I think creativity in teaching
and learning are really supported
by that. So I think all of those pieces
come together to create a building
that hopefully will inspire great teaching
and great learning
and then I think the last piece is that because
it also had a strong focus on
environmental sustainability
it'll also be building
that's a role model for society
and I think that's a good thing as
well.
JANAY NUGENT: The idea of faculty and students sitting in these
gorgeous spaces and having a coffee might sound
elitist in some way.
MIKE MAHON: A little esoteric, yes yeah.
JANAY NUGENT: Right
but that means that it's an informal learning space right?
MIKE MAHON: Right, exactly.
JANAY NUGENT: So its a really great opportunity to teach
beyond the script in the classroom right
and that you can really
explore ideas.
MIKE MAHON: Exactly.
JANAY NUGENT: Go in different directions and those learning one on one
learning experiences that are
really really valuable.
MIKE MAHON: And you know I think you know
my hope is that
this space is
and I believe this will be the case
that this space is inviting
enough that it will not just be
science students it will be in this building
it'll be social sciences
and humanist it'll be students
from fine arts because it's going to be a
very inviting space that's going to be inspiring
space and it's also in a beautiful
corner of campus.
And so you know the goal
when we talk about transdisciplinarity
its not just transdisciplinarity across
the sciences it's transdisciplinarity
across campus right.
And so just as
University Hall is a space from
the very beginning that was really about okay
all of these disciplines coming together.
We hope the science and academic building will be
the same
and it will inspire
engagement across disciplines.
JANAY NUGENT: Right, it's very exciting that there is brand new enormous
building but what's its foot print to University
Hall again?
MIKE MAHON: So it's 440,000 square
feet which is just slightly smaller
than University Hall.
JANAY NUGENT: Well and both of these major buildings have been designed
with that idea of the liberal education philosophy
behind it right.
MIKE MAHON: Absolutely, I mean you know the sixth floor of University Hall
with those platforms
you know was the 1968
or 69 vision by Arthur Erickson
for collisions
and conversations right.
And so we still have those platforms sitting
there. And so I think it'll be very cool
actually when the two buildings are opened
to sort of do a bit of a
fun analysis of the different spaces
we have between our oldest building
and our newest building both designed
to create you know the kind of conversations
that we hope happen as a result of fostering
liberal education in our curriculum.
JANAY NUGENT: So student collaboration was
another thing that we've been talking about
and it was also a major theme in your Fiat Lux address
as well.
And we want to improve
and expand those opportunities
from a pedagogical perspective.
Why is that important?
MIKE MAHON: It gets back to the whole notion of diversity
and that is that you know
I think as we have
you know spent more time understanding
learning. We have come to understand
that you know learning happens
in different you know using
different styles
but through different experiences.
And so the opportunity
for our students to be in the
classroom and engage
with their student colleagues
and with their professors is important.
But I also think we know that
being able to enable students to
be outside of the classroom
and experiencing you know various
contexts where they can bring things
that they talked about from a theory perspective
or talked about in class discussions
between faculty
and students bring it into a different
context
and think about those same concepts
those same theories within
a very vibrant
sort of context outside of the classroom
and frankly outside of the university.
And you know then be able to
bring those experiences back into
the classroom again
and have another
conversation with faculty members
and other conversation
with student colleagues about how
their thoughts have
evolved as they
have read about a particular theory
then experience that theory
through those discussions in the classroom
but then gone into a
different context
and seen it in action.
I'll use one theory that just
pops to mind, I don't know why this one pops in my mind,
but social exchange theory
is a theory that my wife actually used
in her master's thesis.
And social exchange theory is really about
the theory of reciprocity
and so sort of understanding how people engage
in conversation in
experiences with each other.
And there's always some level of
trying to understand the reciprocal nature
of that engagement
and that's really what social
exchange theory is about.
And so I can imagine a sociology student
talking about social exchange theory
reading about it
but then going in to you know
a volunteer experience in a
healthcare setting
and really thinking about social exchange theory
by looking at doctors
and nurses engaging
with each other by looking at patients
and nurses engaging
with each other
and then coming back and having a another
discussion with the faculty member about
the kind of social exchange theory
exchanges they observed
and how that does
or doesn't match up
with help what they read about that theory.
And so for me it's
really about diversity of learning
experiences a way to help
build the person grow the
mind.
JANAY NUGENT: A great way that we could do that as well as experiential learning.
MIKE MAHON: Yes.
JANAY NUGENT: Opportunities for students and I
know that we this is something that we've always prided ourselves
in. But I think that we've
recently undergone
like a purposeful sort of development of
experiental learning opportunities.
So
who is who is in charge of
these experiental.
MIKE MAHON: Who's driving that?
You know I mean I like to think that it's
a distributed model
right. And so
you know with the School of Liberal
Education now being in place
we see a number of experiential
learning opportunities happening through
that school.
So that so for example the
UVolunteer is now
you know being run out
of the School of Liberal Education
so I think it happens it will happen through
that means.
But we also know that we have co-op
experiences in our
faculty
or in our School of Business in our
Faculty of Art
and Science and right across the board.
We also know we have practicum experiences
for our student teachers
and for our nursing students.
So it is a distributed
model and I think that's a good thing because I think
if we were try
and sort of wrap our
arms around it from one corner
of campus I think we would
lose a lot.
And in fact I think that's why you know
there's great enthusiasm about the
evolution of liberal education because it
now is seen as a university wide
concept driven by
the School of Liberal Education
and I think
experiential learning work integrated
learning all the different terms we use for
enabling students to be out
and experiencing the world
is best fostered through multiple
approaches and using multiple lenses.
But at the same time I think one
of our goals needs to be to
at the same time try to
determine how best to ensure
as large a proportion of our students
can have a experiential learning
opportunity and so that
then is where I think
we go back to the School of Liberal Education
and say what role can you play in collaboration
with all of the faculties to really
foster this as an aspiration
for us as a university
and I think
there's there's everything there
to enable that to happen.
But it's you know it's a work in progress it's
a bit iterative in terms of how it's
going to unfold.
JANAY NUGENT: Right, yes and we need to develop a lot of connections.
MIKE MAHON: Exactly.
JANAY NUGENT: in community to create these experiences for students.
MIKE MAHON: One of the challenges of
creating many experiences for
students as possible is just having
a sheer number of experiences
for our students.
So if we have you know
8,500 students
and we want every single one of them to have
at least one experience
out in the community in some way shape
or form.
That's a lot right so that
I think is a challenge for
us. Doesn't mean we can't achieve it
but it is certainly the challenge.
JANAY NUGENT: Just for those who may not know about experiential
learning and what that means.
It's not just we're sending the students to do work
for somebody right?
MIKE MAHON: No, no, so I mean I think number one it needs to be
connected to the curriculum there needs to
be you know objectives
for the experience
and those objectives
need to be measured in some fashion
so that we know that the student
is actually having
the kind of experience that is anticipated.
You know each one of these has slightly different
goals and objectives.
So a co-op program is going to have
a different objective than
and Applied Studies program than a
UVolunteer program
and so part of it is to recognize
that there will be a diversity
of these experiences
for students.
But ensuring that within each
we have you know a clear understanding of
what the intent is
and then we we measure against that.
And you know I remember
in the 90s when I was a faculty member
at the University of Manitoba
and had this as part of
a couple of courses I'd taught.
One of the biggest challenges was making sure
that the experience the student was having
was not just going to some not
for profit organization
and you know in essence pushing some paper
around for you know a few hours
a week that they had that experience.
But making sure that they really were having
you know the experience that was intended
and evaluating against that.
But that does then come
with even greater expectation around
how we deliver this right because it's not just
sending a bunch of students out
and saying have fun.
It's ensuring that there is a real
structuring and it does connect
back to the curriculum of either
the program overall
or a specific course.
JANAY NUGENT: I'd like to ask you about
the integration
and weaving of
indigenous ways of knowing in
to our classrooms.
I know that this is
a goal that you've spoken of.
I know it's a goal that many on campus have
as well in some ways
it's a response to TRC.
How are we moving forward in that particular
direction.
MIKE MAHON: Yeah. So you know I think from
an aspirational perspective
the goal of having
greater indigenization on campus
is very much
in part based on the call action from the
TRC also based on
other you know
other aspirations articulated internationally et cetera.
How this happens I think is
going to be
institutionally specific
or I should say should be institutionally
specific. So we've talked about this
nationally at Universities
Canada. What is indigenizing
the curriculum mean right.
Well the reality is it means
different things to different people
and different institutions
and so I think for us
as an institution it's
really important that we
foster a conversation using
Iikaisskini our centre our indigenous centre
as a means of fostering conversation
about what that really means
and also that because
I think this is the case that
this can happen at different levels it can happen
in specific courses it can happen across
a broader curriculum it can happen at the
institutional level
and understanding what that means.
I also think that we have to recognize
and when we talk about indigenization.
It's not just about the curriculum it's
but the broader campus
and our buildings,
the language we use to describe things.
It's about how we engage in research
and how we engage
with research subjects.
So it's a
very broad
and diverse concept
and I think it's really important for the campus
to have the various
conversations that will lead
us to some
of a variety of strategies
and solutions.
That are U of L
strategies and solutions not
Alberta's strategies
and solutions or Canadian
strategies and solutions.
And so I am pleased that I know
you know the folks at Iikaisskini
are doing some good consulting
work.
It will be important for the rubber to hit the
road at some point right.
So of course we want to consult
and we want to discuss
but at some point we are going to have to sort
of start getting down to okay.
We know conceptually what we're thinking about
now we have to actually try this out.
And do a little experimentation
not unlike what we've done over the
years as we've
as we've evolved liberal education
or we've evolved
experiential learning at some point
you have to actually get some things happening.
And I think that's going to be necessary
for us sooner than later so that we can
you know experiment try some things
and get some feedback on you know what
does it mean to you know sort
of infuse indigenous concepts
into a course.
Some we do already know we have
courses in education in business
and in Fine Arts et cetera.
But some not so much
and so I think understanding
what that looks like
and what the scope of
opportunities are it's going to be important.
JANAY NUGENT: So since we've been talking about your Fiat Lux
address and moving forward by
50 years.
What do you think
are the most important ways
that we can move forward as an institution
in supporting teaching excellence
on campus?
MIKE MAHON: From a teaching excellence perspective.
I think it starts first
of all at a kind of an institutional
level by articulating
that as an aspiration.
And so I think it does start
it really has to be a core part
of our vision and mission
and what's articulated in our
strategic plan in our academic
plan and I think we've done that.
I think there's work good work on
that front but I think we're going to have to continue
to challenge ourselves to
think deeply about this as we move forward.
And I think ultimately
as we evolve as a comprehensive
university our concepts
of teaching have to be
at both the undergraduate
and graduate level.
We have to we have to not just think about
teaching from an undergraduate perspective
but at a graduate perspective.
I also think and this is I think where we
were not yet
but I think we should be trying to get
to the point where we don't think about these things
in silos
and we think about it in a more integrated fashion
because I think we will evolve
as an institution as a comprehensive
university in a very
productive way.
If we can have conversations about
great teaching and learning
at the undergraduate
and graduate level in an integrated
manner because I do think the future of
teaching and learning is about
thinking about the integration
of students across
the undergraduate and graduate
sort of context.
Many exciting things happen
in the classroom
and outside of the classroom that
include both undergraduate
and graduate students not always
and not you know in every
situation. But I think the health
of the discourse about
the sort of coming together
or lack thereof of the undergraduate
and graduate experience will be enhanced
by thinking about these things in a
in a collective or integrated manner.
And I think our conversations are not
yet as refined on that front I would say
and I really hope that we're able
to get there because they think
thinking about it either or is part
of the challenge because it always
then sends us to the
sort of space where we
think about okay
what should we do
or do we need to do at the undergraduate
level to kind of protect it as we grow as
a graduate university.
And I think that's the wrong frame.
I think its what can we do to support
the undergraduate and graduate experience
in a collective manner because it's not
it's not the case that we have you
know one group teaching undergraduates
and one teaching graduate students.
We have people doing both.
And so how do we support you
as a faculty member in history
who we want see
having really positive engagements
with your undergraduates in history
and your graduate students in history.
How do we support you in that manner?
And how do we do it so that we can also support
our students in that manner.
And I think some of it is is supporting them to
engage with each other
and in really healthy ways
and we see this happening
already but I think that's where we
really need to go.
JANAY NUGENT: Well and I know now that you've spoken about doubling
the number of graduate students on campus.
And so what does that
mean I mean integrating the
concepts.
MIKE MAHON: So when I think of really
healthy environment for undergraduate
and graduate students I think about an environment
that values both the undergraduate
and the graduate experience number one so it's
not an either or it's a together.
I think about recognizing that
it's really important to ensure that our
undergraduate students are not sort
of second class citizens
that only receive
you know experiences from those that
you know don't
want to do other things so we stick them
into the classroom that it really
needs to we need to embrace
the value and importance of really strong
undergraduate student experiences.
In a related manner I think we also
should have conversations about
what graduate students can bring to the undergraduate
experience in a very
planned and intentional
manner.
Not just because we're struggling to find
somebody to teach you know a class
and we you know last say to a PhD
student oh by the way we need to teach
this class or this class.
In a much more intentional manner thinking about
how can we design
a program in each of our
disciplines that looks at the integration
between the undergraduate
and the graduate experience.
That potentially even has shared
experiences right.
I mean I think we have tended
to
you know separate out the undergraduate
and graduate experience as
needing to be completely separate from one
another, I'm not actually so sure.
One of the greatest classes I ever took
was a class in the Department
of Psychology at the University of Manitoba
that was in a
research methodology called single subject
design
and we had undergraduate,
masters and PhD students all in the same
class
and I was a faculty member.
I was a lecturer I was just working on my PhD
so in fact it also had I was you know
the so the
single lecturer.
And it was an amazing experience
and I know I remember talking to the undergraduate
students and you know
with them being blown away by having
this experience being in the same conversation
as some doctoral students.
So I think we need to sometimes thinking about
blowing up the
sort of boxes that we have around
how we provide experiences to our students
and thinking about this notion
of having a bit more integration
across the
of course the disciplines as we've talked about earlier
but even across the undergraduate
and graduate level milieu.
JANAY NUGENT: And I do think that there's a little bit of that already going on on campus.
MIKE MAHON: Yep there is.
JANAY NUGENT: The Institute for Child and Youth Studies for example has
these great student seminars where people pitch
their papers or their thesis chapters
and undergrad students are invited in
as well for child related topics.
And you know they can give their term paper
and then get feedback from a multidisciplinary perspective
from students at all different levels
and it's it's exactly what
I think what you're talking about.
MIKE MAHON: Yeah, exactly and you know I also think about this in terms
of how we support our
graduate students especially at the doctoral level
but even at masters level.
I think you know we have to be far
more intentional about
providing experiences for our graduate students
in teaching right.
That this is again you know sort
of looked at as labour
that we use if we need it.
But it's in fact looked at as
how do we provide opportunities
for our graduate students to
be involved in the classroom.
Because number one it's good
for them they're going to grow as individuals.
But number two I also believe strongly
having done it myself as a graduate student
that undergraduate students really
enjoy it. Especially if it's intentional
not if it's a last minute
or you know this is just your
TA that you know grades your paper.
But that this is what
I'm talking about when I talk about integration
it really is a intentional integration
across the different levels
of education.
So I have one last question for you.
Do you miss the classroom?
MIKE MAHON: Oh absolutely I do.
Yeah, you know when I was a dean
at the University of Alberta for a decade
I taught undergraduate students
but I could never teach a full course
just because of my schedule.
But I did lots of you know undergraduate
teaching sections
and I work with a lot of grad students,
I had grad students all the way through
and finished my last doctoral student
here at the U of L for my first two years.
JANAY NUGENT: I got to meet him.
MIKE MAHON: Yes, Son I know.
And in fact I just was in Australia
with him.
JANAY NUGENT: Oh good.
MIKE MAHON: He's teaching at the University of Western
Sydney and so I got
a chance to visit him.
And it's always cool to see your graduate
former graduate students be successful right.
So I miss teaching from
a couple of
perspectives first of all I just really
enjoyed teaching
and spending time
with students in the classroom
outside of the classroom
and in sort of the different contexts
that we created.
And I was always
pretty good at it.
You know I think it was kind
of came natural to me so it was a
fun thing to do.
But secondly I really
also miss
the level of mentorship
and friendship that
you develop
with your students at the undergraduate
and graduate level. I mean I still have
you know former students that I am in touch
with that I taught in you know in the
early 1990s right 20
whatever five years ago
and you know get baby pictures
from students
and that sort of thing so you know you don't
get to do that as much as a
University President.
I mean of course you get to know lots of our
students but not in the same way that you do
when in when you teach
and so I miss I miss that really
human part of
the teaching experience.
That you know I think those of us that love
teaching really enjoy.
JANAY NUGENT: I can relate definitely.
MIKE MAHON: Yeah.
JANAY NUGENT: Well thank you very much for joining us today.
MIKE MAHON: Yes well thank you. It's been fun.
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