>> WELCOME BACK TO THE LINE.
POLITICAL HIT JOB OR LEGISLATIVE END AROUND?
THE ACCUSATIONS ARE FLYING ONCE AGAIN THIS WEEK OVER
WHAT TO DO ABOUT NEW MEXICO'S READING
PROFICIENCY PROBLEM.
NOW, GOVERNOR MARTINEZ HAS LONG PUSHED FOR LEGISLATION
THAT WOULD REQUIRE STUDENTS TO BE HELD BACK IF THEY
AREN'T READING AT GRADE LEVEL, BUT THE LEGISLATURE
HAS ALWAYS BALKED AT THAT IDEA.
WELL, NOW THE DEPARTMENT OF ED IS TRYING A DIFFERENT
APPROACH, PROPOSING A RULE CHANGE THAT CALLS FOR EARLY
INTERVENTION TO HELP CHILDREN THAT ARE STRUGGLING
WITH READING, BUT IT WOULD ALSO REQUIRE STUDENTS TO BE
HELD BACK 'IN SOME SITUATIONS' IF THEY DON'T
SCORE WELL ENOUGH ON AN END-OF-YEAR TEST.
THE PLAN ISN'T SITTING WELL WITH SOME MEMBERS OF THE
LEGISLATIVE EDUCATION STUDY COMMITTEE WHO THINK THE
GOVERNOR AND PED ARE GOING AROUND THE LEGISLATURE ON
THIS PLAN.
SOPHIE, LET'S START WITH THAT FIRST BIT THERE, THE
GOING AROUND BIT.
TRUE?
IS THAT AN ACCURATE ACCUSATION FROM THE
LEGISLATIVE FOLKS?
>> OF COURSE IT IS.
OF COURSE IT IS.
THIS IS ESSENTIALLY THE LEGISLATION THAT THE
GOVERNOR HAS TRIED TO GET THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE
EVERY YEAR AND HAS FAILED.
AND SO I THINK IT'S A CREATIVE ATTEMPT BY THE PED,
THE PUBLIC EDUCATION DEPARTMENT, TO GET THIS
PRIORITY THROUGH.
I WILL SAY THAT I THINK IT IS GOING TO END UP IN THE
DELIGHTFULLY GEEKY AREA, AT LEAST FOR ME, OF THE COURTS.
AT SOME POINT, THIS ISSUE OF WHETHER STATUE PRECLUDES
USING THE RULEMAKING PROCEDURE IN THIS WAY,
THAT'S GOING TO GET SORTED OUT.
>> WHAT'S YOUR SENSE OF THAT, BY THE WAY?
I KNOW IT'S EARLY DAYS.
>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, VERY MUCH AS THE RECENT DECISION
FROM THE SUPREME COURT OVER WHETHER THE VETO POWER WAS
USED CORRECTLY LAST YEAR, I THINK IT'S GOING TO END UP
BEFORE THE COURTS.
IT'S HARD TO PREDICT EXACTLY WHERE IT WILL GO.
BUT I AM HEARING THAT THERE IS SOME DISCUSSION THAT
THERE MAY BE A LACK -- I'M NOT PUTTING THIS WELL.
BUT I THINK THERE IS AN ARGUMENT TO BE MADE ON BOTH
SIDES, LET ME PUT IT THAT WAY.
SOME INTERESTING STUFF THAT CAN COME THERE.
BUT WHAT THE GOVERNOR GETS IS THE ABILITY IN THE FUTURE
TO SAY, WE MADE IT HAPPEN, EVEN IF IT WAS THEN STOPPED
BY THE COURTS.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> ONE THING I'M GOING TO EDITORIALIZE VERY BRIEFLY,
NOT THAT IT'S NOT ALL AN EDITORIAL FOR ME THIS
EVENING, BUT AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO IS TIRED OF STATE
EMPLOYEES WORKING IN PUBLIC INFORMATION, STATE PUBLIC
RELATIONS FOLKS, USING THAT PLATFORM TO SAY THINGS LIKE
POLITICAL HIT JOB?
I THINK YOU WORK FOR THE STATE, I'D LIKE TO SEE
SOMETHING MORE NUANCED.
YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE WORKING FOR THE PEOPLE, NOT
FOR A PARTY.
>> IT'S A REASONABLE DISCUSSION.
ON BOTH SIDES, IT'S HAPPENING.
>> THAT'S ALL I'VE GOT TO SAY ABOUT THAT.
I'M TIRED OF IT.
>> IT WORKS OUT WELL.
ANDY, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THE STATE, WHAT THEY'RE
TRYING TO DO WITH PED IS JUST SAY, LOOK, WE HAVE AN
INTERVENTION PLAN, WE HAVE DEVELOPMENT PLANS, WE HAVE
ALL THESE PLANS TO HELP STUDENTS, WHICH WAS REALLY
KIND OF INTERESTING IN THE LANGUAGE ONCE YOU READ THE
WHOLE SITUATION, IT'S ALMOST LIKE IT'S JUST ABOUT THE
PARCC TEST.
DID THEY MAKE A GOOD ENOUGH CASE HERE?
BECAUSE THE FOLKS WHO THINK IT'S JUST ABOUT THE PARCC
TEST, LIKE ALL THIS WORK COMES DOWN TO YOUR EFFORTS,
MEANING THE STUDENT, AT THE END OF YEAR, THERE COULD BE
OTHER FACTORS AT PLAY THERE.
>> YEAH, I THINK -- GOING BACK TO KIND OF WHAT YOU
TALKED TO SOPHIE ABOUT, THIS COMES DOWN TO A BIG QUESTION
OF WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN STATUTE AND WHAT IS SUPPOSED
TO BE IN THE RULEMAKING.
I THINK PEOPLE ARGUE -- BOTH SIDES ARGUE BOTH SIDES
DEPENDING ON WHAT IT IS.
PEOPLE HAVE ARGUED THAT OUR CURRENT SECRETARY OF STATE,
MAGGIE TOULOUSE-OLIVER, SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO CHANGE
THINGS IN RULES.
THE SAME GOVERNOR ARGUED THAT EXPANSION OF THE
MEDICAL CANNABIS PROGRAM SHOULD NOT BE IN STATUTE, IT
SHOULD BE IN RULES.
SO I THINK IT'S KIND OF AN OPPORTUNISTIC TYPE THING,
AND I DON'T THINK SHE'S GOING TO BE -- SHE'S NOT THE
FIRST OR THE LAST PERSON TO BE IN THIS SITUATION TO TRY
TO SAY, WE'RE GOING TO PUSH THIS THROUGH.
I'M A LITTLE BIT SURPRISED THAT THEY HAVEN'T TRIED TO
DO THIS BEFORE.
>> SOMEONE ELSE MENTIONED THAT TO ME, TOO.
IT SEEMS LIKE THREE YEARS AGO, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN
TRIED, AND KIND OF KEEP GOING AT IT, KEEP GOING AT
IT.
TOM, IN THE BROADEST SENSE, AND I REALIZE YOU'VE GOT
SOME STUFF WITH YOUR COMPANY THAT IS INVOLVED WITH
EDUCATION, SO WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE
BROADEST SENSE, BUT I'VE ALWAYS WONDERED WHY WE CAN'T
HAVE THESE TWO CAMPS COME TOGETHER, MEANING THE FOLKS
IN THE MARTINEZ CAMP WHO BELIEVE IN RETENTION AND
BELIEVE IN TRACKING STUDENTS ALL THE WAY THROUGH, AND
THOSE THAT WANT MORE MONEY FOR EARLY CHILDHOOD
EDUCATION, THAT SOMEHOW WE CAN'T SIT DOWN AND MASH
THESE KIND OF THINGS TOGETHER AND COME UP WITH A
PLAN FOR NEW MEXICO, BECAUSE THEY HAVE THEIR SIDE HERE.
I MEAN, WHEN YOU'VE GOT THE AMOUNT OF FAILURE WE HAVE AT
READING GRADE LEVEL HERE, IT'S HARD TO ARGUE WHERE
THEY'RE COMING FROM HERE.
AND FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF IT, WE NEED SOME MORE HELP
AT AN EARLIER AGE, DON'T WE?
>> AND DAN McKAY WITH THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL I THINK
DID A REALLY SOLID PIECE JUST KIND OF LAYING OUT THAT
ISSUE AS FAR AS ALL THE DIFFERENT INITIATIVES BEFORE
THE LEFC.
I THINK THOSE OPPORTUNITIES PROVIDE ORGANIZATIONS A
CHANCE TO COME TOGETHER AND FIND THAT COMMON GROUND, AND
I THINK THAT FINDING THAT COMMON GROUND IN AN ERA
WHERE YOU HAVE -- YOU KNOW, EITHER YOU'RE IN FAVOR OF
ADMINISTRATION OR YOU'RE IN FAVOR OF TEACHERS.
THERE'S TOO MUCH DIVIDE, I THINK, TO REALLY KIND OF
MAKE MUCH OF A MEASURABLE CHANGE, WHICH IS WHY I THINK
WE SEE THE GOVERNOR USING A PLAYBOOK THAT HAS BEEN USED
BY PREVIOUS GOVERNORS, EVEN PREVIOUS UNITED STATES
PRESIDENTS TO MAKE RULE CHANGES IF THEY CAN'T GET A
PIECE OF LEGISLATION THROUGH.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.
CHRISTINE, WE'VE GOT THREE OUT OF FOUR 4th GRADERS IN
OUR STATE NOT READING AT PROFICIENCY LEVEL.
THEY CAN'T SIT THERE AND DO NOTHING.
CAN WE BLAME THESE PEOPLE FOR TRYING TO FIND SOMETHING
HERE?
>> WELL, THERE ARE A LOT OF INITIATIVES, AND PEOPLE ARE
PERHAPS TALKING PAST EACH OTHER, BUT THE PHILOSOPHICAL
DIVISIONS AND PARTY DIVISIONS ARE THAT WE HAVE A
FIGHT OVER AUTHORITY AND CONTROL, AND THE LEGISLATURE
AND THE EXECUTIVE ARE IN THIS BATTLE.
BUT I WANT TO INTERJECT WHAT A PRINCIPAL TOLD ME WOULD BE
SITE-BASED MANAGEMENT AND IMPLEMENTATION OF NEW
PROGRAMS AND HOW TO MORE EFFECTIVELY ADDRESS THE
STUDENT BODY AT PARTICULAR SCHOOLS.
IT JUST SEEMS TO ME THAT TEACHERS AND PRINCIPALS AND
PARENTS KIND OF GET SHORT-SHRIFTED, THEY GET
LEFT OUT OF THIS EQUATION, AND REALLY I THINK THAT
TEACHERS ARE NOT SEEN, ARE NOT EMBRACED AS THE EXPERTS
THAT THEY ARE.
SO I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEM ALSO FACTORED INTO THE
EQUATION.
LOOK AT WHAT WE'RE WITNESSING NATIONALLY NOW.
THESE PROTESTS AND THESE STRIKES BY PUBLIC SCHOOL
TEACHERS WHO SAY, IT'S NOT JUST OUR SALARIES, WE NEED
MORE RESOURCES OVERALL TO DO A NUMBER OF THINGS.
AND I WOULD ADD THAT IN TERMS OF FUNDING, LAST I
CHECKED THAT LAWSUIT AGAINST THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO
WAGED BY THE MEXICAN-AMERICAN LEGAL
DEFENSE AND EDUCATIONAL FUND, AND NEW MEXICO'S LAW
ON POVERTY -- >> CENTER ON LAW AND
POVERTY.
>> CENTER ON LAW AND POVERTY, AMONGST SOME OTHER
ORGANIZATIONS, ARE SAYING, THIS IS A MAJOR LACK OF
FUNDING, IT HAS PRECEDED THE MARTINEZ ADMINISTRATION,
SOMETHING MAJOR HAS GOT TO CHANGE.
AND SO THERE ARE A LOT OF HIGHWAYS LEADING TO THIS
MAYBE A ROUNDABOUT CIRCLE, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO
INTERVENE.
BUT I AGREE THAT THERE IS SOME COMMON GROUND IN TERMS
OF SAYING, HEY, WE NEED INTERVENTION.
IT'S A QUESTION OF ASKING EXPERTS, HOWEVER YOU DEFINE
IT.
WE HAVE A UNM COLLEGE OF EDUCATION THAT SHOULD BE
WEIGHING IN MUCH MORE AT LEAST OBVIOUSLY, WE DON'T
SEE WHERE THAT IS.
BUT WE'VE GOT EXPERTS IN THIS STATE, INCLUDING THE
TEACHERS, PRINCIPALS AND PARENTS.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
SOPHIE, ONE OF THE LITTLE THINGS HERE THAT'S
INTERESTING AND COULD BE READ AS A COMPROMISE IS THE
PARENTS COULD OPT TO NOT AGREE TO HAVE THEIR STUDENT
HELD BACK IF THEY'RE NOT PERFORMING.
>> FOR ONE YEAR.
>> FOR ONE YEAR, EXACTLY RIGHT.
WHAT'S THE DANGER HERE?
ANY LANDMINES THAT YOU SEE?
BECAUSE A LOT OF PARENTS WOULD JUST STRAIGHT UP OPT
FOR THAT BECAUSE THEY'RE AFRAID OF THE SOCIAL STIGMA.
THEY WANT TO PROTECT THEIR KID.
THAT'S A DIFFICULT DECISION FOR A PARENT.
>> I THINK IT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
I'M NOT SURE, THOUGH, THAT THAT OPTION OF KEEPING YOUR
KID GOING IS -- I'M NOT SURE THAT THAT'S THAT BIG OF A
DEAL.
I THINK IT'S LIKE, AND I HATE TO SAY IT, BUT I THINK
LET'S GIVE SOMETHING TO THE PARENTS IN THE HOPES THAT WE
CAN KIND OF QUIET THAT ARGUMENT THERE.
>> BUT IN ITS PRACTICAL APPLICATION, IT'S HARD FOR A
FAMILY, BUT THAT'S A DIFFICULT ONE, BECAUSE WHAT
IF THEY CHOOSE NOT TO HAVE A CHILD HELD BACK, IT'S STILL
NOT WORKING, AND THEN YOU'VE GOT A WHOLE OTHER THING THAT
APS CAN DECIDE WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AT THAT POINT, AND
THE PARENT IS SORT OF THE EQUATION.
>> WHAT YOU WOULD HOPE, AND I WOULD EXPECT --
>> AND NOT JUST APS, BUT STATEWIDE.
>> -- MOST IF NOT ALL PARENTS WOULD LOOK AT THE
SITUATION WITH THEIR CHILD AND SAY, YEAH, WE DO THINK
THAT THERE IS INTERVENTION THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN HERE,
AND THEN LOOK AT WHETHER IT'S APPROPRIATE TO HOLD THE
KID BACK TO TRY TO GET ADDITIONAL HELP, WHICH MAY
BE DIFFICULT WITHIN THE SCHOOL SYSTEMS GIVEN THE
RESOURCES THAT ARE THERE.
I THINK HOLDING A KID BACK IS ONLY ONE OF A NUMBER OF
POSSIBILITIES, AND I THINK ONE OF THE LONGSTANDING
CONCERNS ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR PROGRAM IS IF YOU
HOLD A KID BACK, ESPECIALLY IF YOU HOLD THEM BACK
MULTIPLE TIMES, AND YOU'RE NOT PROVIDING THE RESOURCES
THAT WOULD ALLOW THEM TO MOVE FORWARD, YOU'RE
CREATING SITUATIONS IN WHICH MUCH OLDER CHILDREN ARE IN A
CLASSROOM WITH MUCH YOUNGER CHILDREN, AND THAT CREATES
NEGATIVE IMPACTS IN THE LEARNING ENVIRONMENT IN THE
CLASSROOM.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
ONE OF THE GOALS -- WE'RE GOING TO WRAP THIS UP.
BUT ONE OF THE GOALS IS ALSO TO POTENTIALLY HOLD BACK
8th GRADERS, GUYS, AND THAT'S A TRICKY ONE, LET
ALONE 3rd GRADERS.
NOW YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT REAL SOCIAL STUFF AT THAT
POINT, AND THE SCIENCE IS SORT OF LOOSE ON WHETHER
THAT ACTUALLY SENDS A KID INTO A TAILSPIN THAT THEY
NEVER REALLY RECOVER FROM, OR ACTUALLY SETS THEM ON THE
RIGHT TRACK FOR COLLEGE.
SO THAT'S A TRICKY ONE, THAT 8th GRADE LEVEL THERE.
THAT'S A TOUGH ONE.
HAVE TO WRAP THAT UP.
THE DEPARTMENT OF ED, BY THE WAY, WILL HOLD A PUBLIC
HEARING ON THIS PROPOSED READING RETENTION RULE
CHANGES ON THE MORNING OF MAY 17th.
FOR MORE INFORMATION, JUST HEAD TO OUR WEBSITE AT
NewMexicoInFocus.org.
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